Curse

Loralai · Nov 06, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

With or without flagging I have come to realize that Olias is his own man, so to speak. I have more difficulty with keeping him in line than any other hero. There is an oversensitivity issue in when you tab (without using space to attack) onto an enemy, some heroes and hench take that as a "CHASE!" command.

I found this an amusing display of just one of the many issues people have expressed on this thread. This is just me waiting to see if Olias could possibly get the party through the portal. (Notice the vast difference on the compass between him and the rest of the party.)

WasAGuest · Nov 07, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Here's a good one of idotic behavior: This is the "groups" fourth time around me. Somewhere behind me Olias was off slaying things solo as usual. Jin was at least attempting to do something here. Which is a change. Koss never got any closer than that.

And here's a wonderful one of our friendly monk standing there. He never once healed himself and was down to about 10 health. I was sitting there waiting for him to do anything.

No one can tell me this is fun nor how it is supposed to work... come on... fix it already.

saphir · Nov 07, 2006, 12:11 AM // 00:11

funny, i played all weekend and have found the new AI w/ heroes to be excellent.
I was bitching all about the initial change in which everything would focus fire on the highest armor character, then there was another change that apparently went in the complete opposite direction to lowest armor, but now everything seems to work perfectly fine for me.

Actually, for me it seems almost like the game is too easy w/ heroes and henchies. I highly suspect though that it depends on what class you are playing. There are a few instance and missions in which our team would have completely failed several times if my character was not a monk. The mission where you rescue Koss in Pogoni(?) Passage w/ that level 16, aggro happy Shahai comes to mind...

So I've been mapping all of Elona as I run around doing quests and missions with my monk. My party has never wiped once (something unthinkable in the old days of prophecies when I was a fire ele that used alesia for aggro bait to escape mobs).

I get higher scores w/ my heros/henchies (highest score 86) in the challenge mission w/ the guild lords than any pug (avg score ~45) I've been in (and that's screening for the good ones too). My heroes rez fast, focus fire, and will retreat to save the backlines.

I generally set all my casters to "guard" and my frontline wars & dervs to "aggressive". If I'm just running thru an area w/ heroes/henchies in tow, I set them to "avoid" or whatever that last setting it called.

I've noticed to that to get the most out of your heroes you have to constantly spamming calls for each target. I usually start spamming the next target before the current one has died figuring the eles or MM army will finish them off. I notice that I have to spam constantly because often once the current target is dead, the warriors will start running back to you!? That's just stupid.. also if you kite or reposition, they'll break off and follow. Other times I've watched Devona or Melonni run for some other caster way deep in the enemy backline once the current target is dead.

I don't think the new AI is any "smarter" just that the ability to micromanage them and actually give them some decent skills makes them seem so. The trick is to constantly call their targets, because in the end the heroes can just be downright stupid.

I generally call in the following order: monk, ele (due to spike/aoe dmg), dom mes, interrupt ranger, necro, ill mes, wars/dervs on our casters, dervish, paragon, other rangers, rest of mob

Of course any annoying warrior/dervish that's terrorizing/interrupting your backline casters takes priority for calls depending on what my healing power is vs the hero's ability to take out their backline spikers first.

So for me, playing a monk, makes it really easy to run around killing things, finishing missions, etc because I have a better view of the overall battlefield, I can throw out heals and prots to mitigate backline pressure while they cut down the enemy, and I can call targets while knowing exactly what everyone on my team is doing and where they are relative to aggro. I run my UW/FOW build which seems to work pretty well.

I hardly use the flags as I'm too lazy to lol, I just call the target, watch Devona use sprint to run in, then toss a prot out if a caster (usually my mes hench who's super eager to get her cry of frustration out) aggro's first.

Anyway, I usually run w/ the following:
me: mo/w Heal/prot monk
Alcolyte S: forgot his name, the ele as fire nuker w/ m shower/fireball/etc and ward against melee
Olias: MM/death nova w/ BR
Melonni: Scythe Mastery w/ no enchant removal skills =)
Mhenlo (great back up healer)
Eve (love her BR for my ele and necro heros)
Mes hench (wish I could set her to pure interrupt)
Devona (love running around the map crushing mobs w/ Charge)

I think the 2 best skills I armed my henchies w/ are Ward against Melee & BR. Since the casters like to stand packed together, Ward really helps them when the enemy wars/dervs go after them. And BR for continuous minionage and nukage. Also MM always works like having a prot monk and nuker rolled into one.

I've uncovered 30% of the map so far, take on huge aggro currently, but I do anticipate the game getting harder eventually to the point where hopefully people will be looking for groups again! Because the lack of "LFG" in towns makes my monk sad, and when my monk is sad... a baby kitten dies

Sir Kilgore · Nov 07, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Post deleted because it was off topic and in a generally pointless direction.

Age · Nov 07, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

I would say if this is a mission use real ppl as to that is what the game is about.

saphir · Nov 07, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say if this is a mission use real ppl as to that is what the game is about.

and that seems to be the aspect of the game hurt most by these over-glorified heroes. I haven't yet finished the game, but every town and mission area lately seems to be a ghost town filled w/ players in full groups running around silently, gathering XP, starting missions. Every so often, a lone voice echoes off the pink spam filled chat window.. "xxx LFG mission" ..

Its sad, I'm all about pugging.. but have been pretty much forced to hero/hench everything due to the complete lack of groups to be found. Then there are the 2 player + 6 hero groups.. are those really groups..?

Maybe there are more pugs in end game areas?

WasAGuest · Nov 07, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I would say if this is a mission use real ppl as to that is what the game is about.

Some missions require you to take heroes though... just an FYI.

It's not about missions though, it's about the game not being fun, nor challenging. It's aboutAnet fixing or changing back the AI to when it was enjoyable (still needed work to be challenging). Instead, we are expected to work around or adapt to something that is neither fun nor slightly entertaining... and we are supposed to be glad for it.
If it was challenging I could probably live with it and go with the flow. However, it's not.
Anyone who says everyone should just adapt should take note; there's nothing to adapt too. The AI is easier to kill now than before as all you have to do to destroy their "strategy" is put an AoE around or on the monk(s). After that, they are too dumb to know what to do next... so, adapt to what? Adapt to them running around in cirlces? Snare to kill faster? What's the point? To rush to the next fight that will play out the exact same? Are we supposed to adapt to the AI heroes panic and spam ctrl + space to get them to do what you say? How is that adapting?
There is nothing to adapt too. The AI is broken, in that the game is akin to playing a FPS PvP match vs bots. And that equals boring. Don't believe me, load up Quake III bot play and watch the AI run in circles avoiding fire... they act just like what we have now.

Corpselooter · Nov 07, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Here's a good one of idotic behavior: This is the "groups" fourth time around me. Somewhere behind me Olias was off slaying things solo as usual. Jin was at least attempting to do something here. Which is a change. Koss never got any closer than that.

[pic]

And here's a wonderful one of our friendly monk standing there. He never once healed himself and was down to about 10 health. I was sitting there waiting for him to do anything.

[pic]

No one can tell me this is fun nor how it is supposed to work... come on... fix it already.

Try giving dunkoro a heal he can use on himself, instead of giving him only target OTHER heals. Healing touch works.

WasAGuest · Nov 07, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

Try giving dunkoro a heal he can use on himself, instead of giving him only target OTHER heals. Healing touch works.

Hmm, I think you may have just pointed out an interesting bug. I used the same build with Tahk (or however you spell her name) and she was healing herself fine... never really paid attention as it was slapped together to see if they would yet again, run in circles for hours.
I'll go check again in a bit.

- thanks

Edit: Yup, she was healing heself with Healing Word... reporting as a bug. - thanks again... I didn't notice it.

I'm wondering, with the vast differences in bugs I've seen and the vast wierdness in different AI behavior, is it possible that the client data is being corrupted somehow?
Example: The Dye and Rune quests in Kamadan work fine for me. A guildie couldn't progress after choosing the "Margrid Path" and had to it over again.
Others claim different quests are not working that just hours before I completed, and vise versa. I couldn't complete Estate Planning, yet a guildie finished just a day prior. - It's almost too eratic to make since... yea I'm really grasping here as I want to enjoy the game... but currently, unable too.

scrinner · Nov 07, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Noticed a Few problems. Sorry if they have been mentioned again.
- In the command training quest, You will see this in action. I will set a flag for all heroes to go to An Area. They will then start kiting their Bums off and only after I called the enemey x100 times (literrally) did they start attacking.
- Problem with Acolyte Sousuke. He keeps running in with the warriors! I have made sure he only has range attacks but even then he tends to follow Koss into battle.
- And the problem with end game kiting is just horrible. Sure they need to kite more for Shiro but its just ridiculous now.

lunksunkunk · Nov 07, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Farming = Too many ppl solo-ing, small grps, little teamwork.
Anet wants teamwork, discourages solo farming = Nerf on AI, skills that allow farming.
Heroes & Henchies = Less Teamwork, more silent towns w/ppl dissing other ppl who wants groups. Who want teamwork.

Kind of a hypocritical standpoint, dont u think? Nerf farming so we work as a team but encourage Heroes and Hench AI so no one wants to work together anymore. Just a thought. Hypocritical or Conflicting Reasoning? Decide for yourself.

badseed · Nov 07, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

my problems is casters running in with warriors and dying first. Since I worked through the game first with ele, my war's i use 2 and derv will not get agro I die first. Once I die they stop fighting to rez they die and group wipe.

When I die hench and hero's seem to branch off to different targets and wipe. I also have a problem keeping hero's and hench on certian targets. If I die its over like i said they all get a hair up there behind and go after dif targets.

Caster hench and hero's seem to kite. Will not stand still, they end up dying. But when its AoE and not a monster attacking them. They stand still and die due to AoE. Whats up with that. Why will they kite or run from melee but stand and die to aoe.

Also mobs will run. not just out of AoE range but run just about off my radar and If I cant knock them down I will have 2 to 4 groups add. So its over.

I dont care about farming. I like using my ele to move through and kill everthing as I find the chests. Or just clear a zone to clear it. But by the time I am on my third group of mobs with a 45% DP. And all my hero's the same way. Takes out a lot of fun.

If they want to kill duo farming, make it so you can not zone out unless you have 4+ in a group in an area where its 8 max. This way you can still go with a small group but solo and duo teams will be no longer.

garethporlest18 · Nov 08, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Disable their rez and use it manually when you need to, that will stop them from rezzing its' what I had to do. Also for casters running in first, you'll have to flag all the time when you fight for them to stop that, make sure you do it before the battle, they don't heal you if running to a flag point. Because they can't think for themselves and don't know any better when your health is being lowered.

Eilsys · Nov 08, 2006, 04:19 AM // 04:19

I was about to say that.

I have all my res skills disabled, and I have stuff like Dark Escape disabled as well.

Tydra · Nov 08, 2006, 07:10 PM // 19:10

i seriously love this thread

i've had my own experiences with this "improved" AI, so i know how frustrating it is. but i was still laughing at some experiences sum ppl made and posted here lmao. if anet doesnt respond to this thread, its at least fun to read the stories lol

i agree big time that hench and monster r behavin plain stupid. sum experiences i made:
i had 3 monks in my team (2 heros and 1 hench), i battled sum lil group. i (the squishie ele) got spiked and was down to about 1/4th health. the rest of my hench/hero team was kinda fine (most had full health, sum 3/4th). during the battle i was down to my 1/4th health for a kinda very long time (well, sumthin like 5seconds or so? *cough* but for an ongoing battle with such low health i think thats long), anywaaaaays not even ONE of those 3 monks healed me .. its like they were just watchin me and takin bets when i get the next spike to finally die (which i did the next second).. even tho the rest of the team was fine, and that battle didnt take THAT long to remove all their energy .. *sigh
another fun thing: i was doin a chest run in fow. sum dude in the team aggroed one of those ether/bond/skeletal warrior kinds of things-group. they ran behind everyone ofc. after a while they broke the aggro, but u know who kept following me, for like half a map further and waaaaay away from their own group? the 2 skeletal bonds LOL i was like "shit shit shit i still got 2 on my tail they r gonna get me any sec" til i finally targeted em to check who it was: the bonds. i was like "double u te ef??", and stood stil. they just stopped next to me, doin absolutely nothin (huh? bet they were checkin my armor out, oooh nice nice). i found 2 new pets!!!! yeeeehaw!! and another point about this situation: i was usin Charge and Sprint to get the hell out of there, and they DID NOT DROP BACK but KEPT MY SPEED UP?!?! wtf, bonds with turbo rockets up their asses?

its rediculous how long mobs keep chasing nowadays. i was in the shiverpeaks sum days ago, the crawl monk-boss of sum group ran off, my team chased him, his team chased us. after a mile his group finally stopped and walked back, th monk? kept running .. they really ate too many duracells.

XvArchonvX · Nov 08, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I'm really not sure what everyone is complaining about. I just did Vizunah Foreign last night with my warrior using nothing but heroes and hench. The local side was full hench on my first attempt to get masters. The local hench kept Togo alive the whole time and didn't suffer one death that I could see before I got there. My final time was 26:07 for an experts reward. I brought 2 MM heroes (Olias and Master of Whispers, who I unlocked after beating Nightfall almost completely with heroes and hench) which did a good job considering neither of them were at 16 death magic, nor had Flesh Golem unlocked. My second attempt was with a full local team and resulted in masters.

My point here is that I have found that hench and heroes do just fine as long as you know how to order them and how to aggro wisely. This reminds me of when someone posted screens of beating THK with all hench using no skills in his skill bar. I have a feeling people are simply placing the blame on hench for their own mistakes.

crimsonfilms · Nov 08, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I think people are yet to fully understand how to use the Heroes.
In particular, they don't know how to mesh their heroes with the right build nor how to use the Attack, protect and defend modes.

I see people complaining about their monk Heroes not healing the party or themselves when they have a god awful skillbar with no energy management. I have used both monks below level 18 on missions around the Bazhaar and getting Masters reward.

I have Zhed as a nuker (NOT meteor shower or firestorm) and I think he is better than 80% of the nukers out there. His kill rate is higher than every real player I have played with in NF PvE.

To me it is not surprising that PvE farmers who has tactical atrophy are having difficulties how to deal with the new monster and hero AI. Months of mindless AI has placed them in a state where they are having difficulties adapting.

Every PvP player I know thinks the AI is godsend and has made PvEing that much better. Hell some PvP player are winning in PvP matches with the AI.
I have gotten Masters reward on every mission except 2 of them so far (2/3 done in the game) with 3 heroes and the rest are henchies.
I don't expect that rate to stay later in the game where the missions are harder.

But I highly suggest people to fix their skillbar first. Stop expecting the heroes to heal themselves with Orison. Koss with Server Artery and Gash at higher levels is just a terrible build. Pure healing builds are just dumb. One attunement as your e-management is just sad. You guys have been playing the game mindlessly-- time to adjust.

Stop using generic skillbars. Customize them to fit mission and the offense (and defense). And put the appropriate 'mode' for each hero.

It is not that hard people.

crimsonfilms · Nov 08, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Well you did post it...

But as I said, that skillbar for a monk is just not good at all.
He is on Guard mode with Healing Whisper. Notice he does NOT HAVE A SELF HEALING SKILL. Not to mention you gave him a long cast time hard res.

Sheezaz

WasAGuest · Nov 08, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

@XvArchonvX and Crimsonfilms - no offence, but your missing the point here. There's no complaints about difficulty increased. It's a complaint on how dumb the AI is now. It's how Un-fun the fights are now. If anything, the AI is so bad now, the game is easier. All you have to do is be patient and the AI heroes will wipe out most of the baddies if you are patient. If you rush in and expect to win, well... say hello to the rez shrine.
The biggest problem for me is the simple fact that I am able to defeat every single group I come across using three skills. - As a Dervish: Aura of Thorns, Heart of Holy Flame and any "self enchant removal that attacks". That's all I've needed. Snare, clean up, snare clean up.
As a ranger, I'll take mesmer second and take epidemic. Apply poison, Crip Shot Epidemic... now all foes are crippled and poisoned and clean up time.
As a mesmer I'll use Jin or Margrid mainly but any hero with a crippling attack works; fevered dreams quickly followed by "the snare" and it's over. Clean up time.
Ele... shouldn't even need to mention how many snares they have in water magic...

Point is, it's not hard, nor is it fun and entertaining. When someone complains about the AI, it's instantly dismissed as being "too hard"... this is not the case here. The AI is far from hard, it's easily wiped out, and generally and easily the worst AI I've seen in GW to date... and this does not hold to just the mobs. It applies to the Heroes and Henchies as well. It's playable, but why would we sit back and accept such horrid coding and AI when we can and have seen much better from Anet? I just don't understand the reasons against wanting better...

Edit: I'm glad PvPers are enjoying the new AI. I guess playing tag in arenas got boring. But this is PvE. Story line and foes of different actions and reactions are needed to keep it interesting. Playing against Quake bot like AI is not fun, nor... again, a challenge. Anet should stop trying to force PvP and PvE together. They are always going to break one of the game types when they try this.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 08, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

I think people are yet to fully understand how to use the Heroes.

That's exactly what I'm thinking and have been saying too. People are also expecting far too much from the Heroes, they expect them to be able to use any skillbar efficiently to any situation and team makeup.

Hero A.I. is not perfect and could use some tweaking but having Heroes increases the flexibility in team building a thousandfold and probably a lot more effective than random PUGs.

I'm not the best team builder out there since I'm not familiar with a lot of caster skills and yet I still manage to make a decent hero/hench build that pretty much breezed me through the game. Of course, I've had to change the build quite a few times to adapt but that's a good thing. Going through the game mindlessly is a killer.